Interview:

James Riordan is the author of thirty-three books, including the New York Times Bestseller, Break on Through: The Life & Death of Jim Morrison which was one of the primary sources for Oliver Stone’s epic film, The Doors. Riordan also wrote Stone’s biography, Stone: The Controversies, Excesses & Exploits of a Radical Filmmaker, and The Bishop of Rwanda: Finding Forgiveness Amidst a Pile of Bones.  He is also the author of several novels including The Kill Switch and The Coming of the Walrus.  He has won several national awards and was nominated for a Midwest/Chicago Emmy for writing in 1998   He has appeared on several television programs including Inside Edition, Final 24, Tomorrow with Tom Snyder, Regis Philbin and Mancow’s Morning Madhouse to name a few.  He has written for the Chicago Daily News, the Kansas City Star, Rolling Stone, Circus, Crawdaddy and several other publications including a nationally syndicated column on popular music.  He is a contributing editor/writer to Men of Value, writing the popular blog A Well Thought Out Scream.

“I really can’t separate my life from my faith,” Riordan said. “They are totally entwined.  When I was a young boy I went to a Catholic school where the nuns were very abusive.  Some of it was physical, but it was the verbal abuse that did the most harm. They’d say things like ‘Jesus doesn’t like you,  You’re a bad boy.’  I’m sure I was a handful, but if someone ever said something like that to one of my kids I’d be all over them with everything I had.  Consequently, I grew up thinking of God as sort of a giant fist waiting to smash people.  But as I grew up I realized that was not the case and even though I stayed away from organized religion for a long time, I still prayed and sought the truth.  If you continually seek the truth you will eventually find Jesus Christ, because he is at the center of it.”

 It was Riordan’s wife, Deborah, who led him back to church.  “One thing that had been drummed into me as a kid was the idea that the Catholic faith was ‘the one true faith’.  They pushed that so hard when I was a kid that when I rejected it I assumed that there were no other paths to God.   Once I met Debbie and attended her church I realized that the Protestants, which I had been taught to reject, were truly seeking God and God’s will.  I still had problems seeing God as loving, but that all changed when we moved to L.A. and I went to the Vineyard for the first time.  This was in 1978 and Kenn Gulliksen, who began the Vineyard on the beach in Santa Monica, had just started Sunday afternoon services at a church in the Valley.  I was writing my syndicated column on music and someone at RSO records had told me about the church.  I knew a lot of music people went there and that it was very laid back.  The Sunday I was planning on attending, Debbie was sick and we were living in Malibu so I drove through the canyon alone and found the church.  The first time I went there I was amazed.  I called Debbie after the service and said, “These people are for real!  They didn’t even mention money or try to browbeat the congregation.  It was all love.  And Gulliksen just oozed love from the pulpit.  We wound up going to the Vineyard for the next seven years.”

Another interesting thing happened to Riordan at that Vineyard service.  He met Bob Dylan.  “I’d heard that he was one of many different music artists who went there, but I didn’t think anything else about it.  When I got to the church, the place was packed.  I looked around and finally found a seat near the back on the left side of the church. I noticed that there were a lot of people in their late 20’s like me, a few older folks and several who were even younger. There was no dress code at the Vineyard and most people wore jeans or shorts. When the service started I was amazed by the lack of pretense. Everything was simple and straight forward and totally sincere. No pomp, no ritual and absolutely no hypocrisy. Then about ten minutes into the service we sang Amazing Grace and I heard this distinct rough-edged nasal whine coming from the seat behind me. “Aaaamaaazing Graaace, how sweeeet the sound” the voice sang, and I thought, “could this be Bob Dylan?” I had already interviewed lots of rock stars including George Harrison, Frank Zappa, Fleetwood Mac, the Doobie Brothers and many others, but I’d never met anyone I truly idolized. Probably because the only people I idolized back then were John Lennon and Bob Dylan, whom no one but the top tier of rock journalists ever got access to and even that was rare. I decided I would sneak a peek so at one point, as I was sitting down, I glanced over my shoulder and… there he was! It was the classic Dylan image – wild hair, sunglasses and leather jacket. “Yep, that’s him,” I thought. Then, later in the service, we were asked to greet the people around us. I shook hands with Bob and his girlfriend, Mary Alice.

When the service was over Riordan thought about approaching Dylan, but then held back.  “I just thought that I shouldn’t bother this man at church. He needed to feel that he could come there without that kind of burden.” And I didn’t go up to him. He came up to me.”

Riordan was in the church bookstore and happened to pick up a new edition of Hal Lindsey’s The Late, Great Planet Earth, a best-selling Christian book of the time that attempted to apply bible prophesy to modern times.  “It was one of my favorite books back then and part of the reason I moved to L.A. was because I had this idea about making it into a film. What made this even more interesting was that the man who sat next to me in the pew that first Vineyard visit had given me his card which said that he worked for Hal Lindsey’s company. So I was thinking about that and looking at the book when Dylan approach me and said in his classic drawl, “Hey, that’s a pretty good book, ain’t it?” I said yeah, that I liked it a lot. I thought about telling him of my desire to meet Lindsey and develop a film but then decided to keep silent lest he think I was trying to use him in some way. I mean, here he was, one of the most recognizable people on the planet, venturing out to seek Spiritual growth. I couldn’t bring myself to use that as an opportunity to further my career. But it wasn’t over yet.”

Later, Riordan was standing in the parking lot waiting for some cars to go by so he could get to his Datsun and this woody station wagon stopped next to him.  “It was a new car, but really dusty. The window rolled down and it was Bob Dylan behind the wheel. He said, ‘Hey, see you next week, huh?’ Now, at this point, I was thinking I would no longer be bothering him since he had approached me twice. So I said, ‘You know that Late, Great Planet Earth book? Well, I just met a guy who works with Hal Lindsey and I’m thinking about going to see him to talk about making a movie out of the book.’  Bob looked at me for a moment and then said, ‘Can I go with you?’

The surprise and elation Riordan felt was beyond describing. “A flood of visions passed through my mind. Me calling up Hal Lindsey’s office and going, ‘Yes, Bob Dylan and I would like to see you sometime.’ I was pretty sure he’d see me. Then the thought of me and Bob working together. Hanging out! And there was Bob, driving a station wagon with the window rolled down, waiting for my response.  ‘Sure, you can go with me.’ I told him I lived in Malibu and he said that he did as well which I already knew since his house was like a Malibu landmark. He wrote down his phone number on a torn off piece of paper and told me to give him a call. Then he said goodbye and drove away.”

The album that followed Dylan’s conversion was the compelling Slow Train Coming. It won Dylan a Grammy for “Best Male Vocalist” for the song Gotta Serve Somebody. While the album sold well, Dylan took a lot of heat in the press for his conversion. When he toured from the fall of 1979 to the spring of 1980 Dylan talked about his faith saying things like: “Years ago they…said I was a prophet. I used to say, ‘No I’m not a prophet.’ They said, ‘Yes you are, you’re a prophet.’ I said, ‘No it’s not me.’…Now I come out and say Jesus Christ is the answer. They say, ‘Bob Dylan’s no prophet.’ They just can’t handle it.”

And so it was. People didn’t mind other people embracing a particular faith, but they got angry when Bob Dylan did it. Why? Because Dylan had long been established as the voice of truth. And when the voice of truth says you need Jesus you have to reckon with it. Many responded in anger. By the next album, Saved, in 1980, a lot of people seemed to be hopping mad about it. Dylan has never been afraid to go up against criticism and his records still sold, but after awhile, all but his truest fans weren’t listening to the songs or anything he had to say about his faith. They just couldn’t let it go.

In fact, though Dylan later told interviewers he had re-embraced his Jewish faith, every album contains lyrics and themes that are virtually right out of the New Testament. I don’t believe Bob gave up on Christianity. He just realized that he could be far more effective if he stopped challenging people head on with it.   In a 2004 interview with 60 Minutes, he told Ed Bradley that “the only person you have to think twice about lying to is either yourself or to God.” He also explained his constant touring schedule as part of a bargain he made a long time ago with the “chief commander—in this earth and in the world we can’t see.” In a 2009 interview with Bill Flanagan promoting his Christmas in the Heart album, Flanagan commented on the “heroic performance” Dylan gave of O Little Town of Bethlehem and that Dylan “delivered the song like a true believer”. Dylan replied: “Well, I am a true believer.”

So what happened with Bob and James Riordan going to see Hal Lindsey and maybe developing a movie together? “Nothing,” Riordan said. “I called several times, but Bob never returned my call. But there was a larger, spiritual truth that I learned from the experience. Seek the kingdom first and all else will be added unto you. That’s a bible verse that means if we seek God first, He will take care of everything else. I had moved from Kankakee to Malibu and thought I was a hot-shot writer. I kept feeling God was leading me to find a church so I could continue to grow spiritually in the direction He wanted me to grow in, but I was too busy trying to get my career happing and dealing with the fact that my rent had gone from $145 a month in Kankakee to $1050 a month in Malibu. Then, finally I decided I’d better put God as my top priority and I went to church. He then showed me in the most dynamic way possible that if would seek Him first, he could make the rest happen. Including suddenly connecting with one of my idols and having the opportunity to work with him. Even though it didn’t work out I never forgot that lesson and keeping those priorities straight has served me well in dealing with some of the biggest names in Hollywood throughout my career. And, as for Bob, I never resented him for not getting back to me. I think I understand about that. I mean he’s Bob Dylan. It’s not easy being Bob.”

In the years to come, Riordan wrote several important books and it 1991, he returned to Illinois. “Once I became established as a writer I didn’t really need to live in Los Angeles and my wife and I like the simpler life that can be had in the Midwest and we like being around the family and friends with whom we grew up.”

In April of 2000, Riordan’s faith endured its biggest challenge when his 16-year old son Jeremiah was killed when he got a ride home from a party in an accident involving three drunk drivers. “There were fifty kids from his high school drinking at that party and it happened two blocks from my house, Riordan said.  “Jeremiah was an amazing person.  He was a star in four sports, got straight As for most of his life and yet was a very caring and loving human being.  In a lot of ways, he was my hero.  One of my favorite stories about Jeremiah was told to me by a kid he hung out with as a Freshman.  This boy said that he and Jeremiah and several others were out having pizza after a game one time. “We weren’t drinking or anything like that,” the boy said.  “But when we were walking to our cars, I tripped and I was just horrified because there were these cute girls with us and I just knew everyone was going to make fun of me.  But then Jeremiah did this huge pratfall and everybody laughed and made fun of him.  As he stood up he looked at me and I knew that he did that for me.  He knew he could take being made fun of like that and I couldn’t so he literally took the fall for me.  He was like that.  That’s why so many people loved him.”

After Jeremiah’s death, Riordan started Make it Stick, a nonprofit organization that works to warn teens of the dangers of alcohol, provides alternative activities and helps troubled kids get back on track.  “I tell people I work with teens in trouble…and that’s all of them,” Riordan said.  The teen center, aptly named Jeremiah’s : A Place to be Yourself, grew incredibly fast and had to move to larger quarters twice in a year and a half.  “We outgrew every place because the need is so great,” Riordan said.  “At the end we were drawing 300 kids a night on the weekend.  We tried to provide a place where the kids could relax and be themselves without the presence of alcohol or drugs.  They don’t really get that today,  It’s either a more formal situation like something at the school or there booze and drugs around.  They need to learn who they are without that stuff being part of it.”

The center had half a dozen adults helping out but also a staff of fifty teens. “The best way to get it to work is to make them part of the solution.  A kid would have to start out taking the trash out and then, if we saw he or she was sincere, we made them a staff member.  They made it work.”

At one point each evening Riordan gave a five minute sermon and then led a group prayer.  “The kids respected that because they knew it was real.  I didn’t pretend to be holier than thou — I told them I had my struggles just like they did and they accepted that.  They knew we were being real and they knew we cared. In the two and a half years we had the teen center, over a hundred people accepted the Lord into their hearts.”

The teen center was so successful that Riordan was flown to Atlanta by the Salvation Army when Ray Kroc, the founder of McDonalds’ left money for the organization to build teen centers.  “Too often organizations build these new and shiny teen centers and then worry about the kids messing them up,” Riordan explained. “The center should look and feel like a kid’s room.  You don’t want new furniture and then not allow the kids to sit on the arms of the sofa.  You want furniture that comes from their garages.  And when the arms fall off the sofa you get four boys to carry it out to the alley and ask who might have something at home to replace it.  Everything we had came from some kid’s family and the kids were proud they contributed.  After all, it was their place. We published a literary magazine for three years that went to every high school kid in the area.  It featured stories and artwork by the kids themselves and provided statistics on the dangers of alcohol for teenagers.  For instance, it is estimated that 20% of beer sales are to underage kids and alcohol is a 50% factor in the four leading causes of teenage death – traffic accidents, drowning, suicides and murders.  In over half of the teenage deaths from those causes alcohol was involved.”

Riordan is also active in trying to stop alcohol companies from targeting teens. “They say they don’t but all you have to do is watch the commercials.  In fact, a friend of mine, the late Richard Kiel, who used to play “Jaws” in the James Bond films that starred Roger Moore told me he was offered a lot of money to do an add where he scared off the bull in a bar.  He turned it down.  They doubled the offer.  He turned it down again.  They doubled it again.  Finally he went to see the Vice President of the company and asked him why they wanted him so bad.  He wasn’t even a star, just a character actor and they told him it was because he was hugely popular with ten to thirteen year old boys.  Of course, that’s who liked that character.  Richard turned them down flat.  But the truth is that if a kid drinks at age 12, there is a 40% chance he will become an alcoholic at some point in his life.  The younger they start, the more likely they will become alcohols.  So of course the alcohol companies target them.”

Riordan was President of Pledge for Life for four terms, an organization that works with area schools to educate kids on the dangers of substance abuse. “I once handed out lunchbox drinks at the annual board meeting and told the fifty people there that two of them had drinks that were .30 proof and let’s see how long it took them to find them.   They couldn’t do it because these drinks, called alco-pops, were packed very similarly to the typical lunch box drinks with the little straws and everything.  Now, no 21 year old is going to be carrying those in their lunch but a 14 year old girl will.  After a lot of campaigning, many states have outlawed alco-pops, but that’s just an example of the extremes these companies will go to reach kids.”

There is no question in Riordan’s mind that faith and God enabled him to cope with the loss of his beloved son.  “From the moment it happened, God was there for me in a huge way.  Not just through other believers, even though they were a great comfort to my wife and I.  But, also in a more direct way.  For an entire year after my son’s death I could tell God the way I was feeling on any particular day and He would give me a scripture to help me that day.  Now, I’ve read the Bible, but I certainly didn’t have it memorized.  So I’d say, ‘Okay God, I understand this part, but I still don’t understand this other aspect and BAM, a scripture would pop into my head.  I’d have to go and look it up because I wouldn’t know it by the verse and number, but once I looked it up and read it, it was exactly what I needed to understand for that day.  It was amazing.”

As far as the world today goes, and especially America, Riordan, like many believers, is concerned. “We have pulled away from so many truths that made this nation strong.  People have been warning that we are in the end times for years so I don’t know that saying that has much meaning anymore, but the fact is that much of what is happening today has been prophesized in the Bible.  But it’s not just there.  Look at songs like Sting’s line, When the world is running down, you make the best of what’s still around  or REM’s It’s the end of the world as we know it.  The stage has been set and the world is becoming crazier and crazier.  It may still have a ways to go, but I don’t look for things to get better until Jesus Christ returns in his glory to set things right.  Man’s best is just not good enough.”